Holder Item Revamp Discussion

[PatriotArrow]

Alright everyone! We're looking to change how this works so that it will appeal to more than one or two people. To quote the announcement page:

"The first is a revamp of holder items. While highly versatile, the holder items are undeniably complicated to the point of being confusing to a large number of people around here. We're looking to simplify those, and would like to give people the opportunity to share what they think should be done with them. Should they work closer to regular spells like the requip users? Should they be something different? Do you just like them the way they are? Thoughts and ideas from you guys are important to us, and we'd like you to share those here!"

Alright... 3... 2... 1... DISCUSS!

[Tatsuma]

Well first thing is first. I think holder items shouldn't break so the durability thing should be only for mundane or magically created weapons. That being said getting it taken is fair more or less. Still I agree that they are too complicated and I believe that there should probably be holder specific events where holders can upgrade themselves so they don't have to completely rely on being ballas. Also maybe allow [hunting] threads for holders and requippers to find new holder and magic items.

[Kasimir Sewik]

I'd say make them work similar to re-equip or caster or something. Like maybe have a list of upgradeable features, like how caster spells have 'extras' that can be added, and then let the user choose between a giant list. And each one consumes a lacrima or something.

It would help if I was more familiar with FT in it too though >__> But I figure that way you could treat it as a similar level-up to how caster types get spells; holder items get another lacrima instead.

[Atrum Furea]

In my head there were always two types of holder items. Magical items that have a certain number of charges to work with and in my head those were things like rings and such, and items that required you to replace lacrima like weapons and armor.

the difference being that the first type recharges on it's own after a thread or something like that and the other requires active reloading. It's the impression I got from the anime and manga so I just operated under that assumption.

[Guest]

Here's the problems with Holder items right now as I see them:

1. First and foremost, despite what their description says, holder items suck at versatility until super late game, when you've bought tons of the augment lacrima for it to actually switch around.
(actually, the only reason that I went requip over holder was that a starter level requip can do way more than a late game holder. And I'm sure this is also the reason why people are circumventing this by just going caster + weapon.)

Solution. I think the main problem here is that you only start with 2 extra lacrima and you can't use any extras beyond those 2. This is made worse when some of the extras require a second one to even be usable. The solution can be something as simple as allowing the holders to start with more than 2 extras. Don't add too many though as they do still get a free weapon.

2. Shop requirement and stupidly high prices for little reward. Another big issue is the fact that, unlike casters, holders can't upgrade their stuff through rp and must use the shop. Also the prices. Mundane equipment = 15k jewel, holder equipment = 150k+ (not counting accessories) the difference? 2x durability, don't even get anything in terms of 'holder upgrades'... Hardly seems worth it when you add all the other costs to make the holder item even slightly magical. (about 100k)
(Am I correct in assuming this pricing was meant to keep holder mages from spamming holder items?)

Solution. Allow holders to do all their upgrading through rp, similar to caster mages. Also make the difference in price and actual lack of versatility worthwhile. Maybe make it so that holder mages can add the Power of their weapons to the power of their spells or something along those lines.

3. The confusing rules. While some things are fairly straight forward, others almost seem to be made unnecessarily confusing on purpose. I will just list stuff as I go:

MP lacrima - While a cute idea, and I suppose a decent way to limit 'gun users' it's just not necessary to have it when you already have base MP, it also kinda falls into Problem 2, where it can't be upgraded through leveling or rp. It'll also add to the confusion if the user eventually has access to spells from multiple mp sources (ex. 2 different weapons with mp lacrima + 1 with innate mp usage.)

Revise explanations of equipment - The most glaring problem is the defensive gear, as the description of it states it has a static 3* damage reduction to the user, but then the stat description for 'Power' says it's the amount of damage the armor will reduce. So that kinda leaves me with 4 possible choices.
 1 - basically all stats outside of durability for armor are useless
 2 - Power on armor/shield determines the power of a strike with said item.
 3 - power on armor/shield adds to the base 3* damage reduction.
 4 - power on armor/shield is equal to damage reduction to the item's durability when being hit.
I think for this particular issue, it's mostly the defensive gear, where the stats become kinda vague.

"When switching out extras, the new extra takes one post to charge before being useable." - Isn't the whole "taking up 1 post to change a lacrima" already enough? I think you should just have one or the other, pick  the one you can word better.

"Two extras may fit into one sub lacrima slot, though if you want to switch them out, both must be switched out at once." - This also adds to the confusion, but I can see why one would want to change two extras at a time. I think I will suggest just making it 1 per slot and allowing 2 lacrima changes per post. (allowing more slots to accommodate the change might be nice, although I think the 10ish slots they get at max is more than enough.)

Ok, now the Disclaimer. All these changes were made assuming you wanted to keep the base model of the holder weapons. That being that you can actually be versatile later on, when you get the ability to change spells on the fly. It is a pretty original idea and allows for crazy thing to be done by someone who thinks outside the box; so I did my best to stay true to it. However if your objective is simply to super simplify, then just making Holder magic be similar to Requip is probably your best bet. Although I'd personally only do that as a last resort if the majority called for it.

[Guest]

Hm guess I better throw in my two cents here. *tosses two pennies into the hat in the middle of the room*

Alright so I am just gonna go off of Elly here, prove my side quicker I suppose...  Anyways... I do feel like the limit of two extra lacrimas to start is a little limiting at first. I had stated such when it was first decided but I went along with it cause I could make it work. One or two more would kinda be awesome just saying.

I would argue about the reward in the prices at the shop, for I think even getting one new extra lacrima I now have a multitude of ways I can use it... though I would think a drop in prices rather nice. I do feel that there should be some sort of way in the RP for holder mages to obtain new spell lacrima (which unless yall changed it on me without telling me, you do not if ya do fine whatever ignore this) as like say every level after level two they obtain one free spell lacrima and one extra lacrima to go with it... thus by level 10 you have a total of 10 spell lacrima, unless you bought more, you also are then with about 10 to 12 extra lacrimas depending on if you bump up the starting amount... along with cheaper prices, not by much, that will get the ball rolling on more people probably wanting to be caster....

Also why we put them so high I do not really remember.... I didnt make the prices nor was I involved with the making of the prices... just looked and said that could work... seems high but should be fine.... eh no lowering it may make it more desirable by others.... (Also Elly a holder mage is limited to only three holder items, though I will personally request that this get bumped to four holder items with the inclusion of the secondary magic for those holder mages that choose to stick to realism and not pick up a caster secondary...)

Now the rules... they need rewording... I believe I have said as much.. Cause yeah I understand them because I was kinda there when ya made it and was the wall for bouncing off ideas.... Mayhaps better explaining would clear up issues... so I will point out the ones that Elly pointed out and attempt to reword them to make things easier....

MP lacrima.... use this, you have no MP bar of your own... the MP lacrima acts in place of your character's MP... as such the magic is purely from the item and you are just activating the item... it was more designed for items like what Atrum stated..."In my head there were always two types of holder items. Magical items that have a certain number of charges to work with and in my head those were things like rings and such, and items that required you to replace lacrima like weapons and armor. " the MP lacrima was designed to act as the charges in the item.... not a secondary MP pool people can just add to their own... the item replaces the MP pool and the MP lacrima only is used for the spells on the item.... if you have a second item without an MP lacrima yeah you are gonna seemingly have more MP than the average Joe.... personally I feel that instead of allow MP lacrima to upgrade in general... each only comes with a set amount of MP and takes up your slots. Thus an item will get more uses, but fewer spells, and fewer extras to work with, or you can have an item with few uses, but more room for spells and extras....

I am going to leave the armor and shield part alone you covered it quite well, and I already had said it before that it needed clearing up.

Now the wording on the "When switching out extras, the new extra takes one post to charge before being useable." it is literally meant so that people cannot switch out lacrima and use that lacrima on the same turn... you have one post where you switch out any lacrima you switch out.... and none of it can be used until your next post.

Now the two extras in one sub lacrima slot... my idea... because I was playing with some figures and I was like well since you guys only want this many slots... let the extras double up.  it allows for the holder to actually be what they are supposed to be versatile, and when you have one extra to each slot, that makes some of the small items, like rings and such a let down because you dont really have as much variance as one whom picks up a sword... and we dont want everyone swinging swords do we? Where is the fun in that? That was my attempt to make some of the other smaller items more pleasing to choose. However if you shove two things in one slot, naturally since you opened the slot you would can change out one, obviously since they are packed in there the other will come out to, but if you want it back in there fine just throw it back in... both cannot be used on that post naturally, since you are stuck changing out lacrima...

All in all, I feel I hearty rewording of the holder stuff is in order so people can properly see and understand the holder things before we try and change it further. If after a rewording, people are still unhappy with the system... cool we can work something out then... I know a lot of people simply are saying and have said the system is too confusing... personally since I was there and heard what yall meant when creating the system... it isnt that confusing to me, and I feel with a rewording a lot less people will find it confusing..

[Ren Caverly]

When I create an idea for a character, it is based on something that inspires me, or a place I need to fill.

We're looking to change how this works so that it will appeal to more than one or two people.

Personally I find a lot of things appealing that other people do not, and I do not find things appealing that others do. I find holder items more appealing than re-equip or dragon slayer magic, just because of the concept, but I suppose since none of them really appeal to me as a magic concept, that isn’t saying too much.  To explain what I’m about to say I am going to reference Shadowrun v5(which I like approximately ¼ as much as v4, but moving on).

In Shadowrun v5 you currently have to make characters on a priority system. They tell you what you get for putting your highest priority into any of the slots. If you are not a cyber warrior or hacker you don’t need a lot of cash. If you are not using magic you put the lowest priority into magic. If you are making a human it is also fairly low. Human characters start with a higher amount of the luck stat(edge). A mundane human cannot start with lower edge than I believe 5/7, since edge is overpowered, that is a huge overpowering. The game is telling me that it pities me if I make a mundane human, because “Who would want that? Clearly you want a magic user, or a cyber troll, that’s where the fun is.” However, I am not playing a min/maxes fighter on a video game, I am making my own character to write stories with. I do not need to be bribed or told how clearly the game makers assumed I wouldn’t want to make that. The same applies to holder items.

Holder items are for non-magic users to use magic. Its like if I walked outside and picked up a magical sword. I can customize it and all of that, but we’re not there yet. I am mundane, I should never be as good as someone who naturally uses magic. Holder magic, as far as I am concerned, shouldn’t be as caster magic. Creativity and leveling up are there, but innately, it should be weaker. That doesn’t make it a lesser option on this site. We give our characters flaws, we give them weaknesses, it makes them interesting if they have something to overcome. It is not meant to be as powerful. If you want someone as powerful, make a caster who makes weapons with their magic. If you want the interest of a mundane person(though caster’s can wield holder items too, again, proving why they shouldn’t be as strong, or it would get crazy) who despite this, goes up against caster’s using only their own creativity and the items they have managed to gather, go for it. That’s cool, but it isn’t meant to be equal.

I think, personally, that holder items working like spells is fine. If each working part has a set stat, because really… its an item, not a spell(though some might change, I guess?) and you interchange all of those parts for others, then it would make more sense. As far as how things work mechanically, I know there are ideas floating around. My comments are more directed at concepts, such as improvement, and what I said earlier.

Well first thing is first. I think holder items shouldn't break so the durability thing should be only for mundane or magically created weapons. That being said getting it taken is fair more or less. Still I agree that they are too complicated and I believe that there should probably be holder specific events where holders can upgrade themselves so they don't have to completely rely on being ballas. Also maybe allow  [hunting] threads for holders and requippers to find new holder and magic items.

I actually don’t mind most of this statement. I think that any item should be able to break. However I think if it is a magic item, why not just be able to fix it? I mean, I just cannot imagine anything that isn’t allowed to break. People’s arms break, a physical weapon should be able to break, but yes, also have it allowed to fix it. As for being too complicated, agreed. As for holder specific events I’m not entirely sure what you mean, but it reminds me of something I was trying to suggest. The more jobs we get on site the more variety there is, and people won’t just have the same old stuff for all their characters. Also higher level characters(if we get there) will have options as well. One thing that could come with some newer jobs are parts for their holder items. Instead of a monetary reward they get a part, but for other users they could have the cost of said part. So anyone could get things from the quest, and it would give variety.

I'd say make them work similar to re-equip or caster or something. Like maybe have a list of upgradeable features, like how caster spells have 'extras' that can be added, and then let the user choose between a giant list. And each one consumes a lacrima or something.

I like that. A ton of options makes it feel more open and appealing. I know I was overwhelmed by the spell system at first, but now I appreciate having all sorts of options. Also as for what Atrum said, I’m unfamiliar with a ton of the anime and manga things, but what you said makes a lot of sense.

1. First and foremost, despite what their description says, holder items suck at versatility until super late game, when you've bought tons of the augment lacrima for it to actually switch around.
(actually, the only reason that I went requip over holder was that a starter level requip can do way more than a late game holder. And I'm sure this is also the reason why people are circumventing this by just going caster + weapon.)

Just throwing this out there, but this isn’t a game. One of my biggest issues with my tabletop group is when some of them treat it like a video game. It is about the RP, and not about the stats. This is part of why I prefer to do jobs on my own. All of that stuff is maintenance, but to me, the characters interaction is the fun stuff. Also I’m not much for action, so that doesn’t help. Or co-managing NPCs…. Moving on. So it isn’t “late game” it is, once you have earned it. Maybe the systems don’t work like a video game, but they honestly shouldn’t. If you’re stuck on the stats you won’t enjoy a character as much, even if you enjoy playing. As for people circumventing this by just going caster + weapon. I do have a character who has weapons, but they are just there to work in with one spell. Her concept called for this, but it isn’t because holder didn’t work right. Having a caster throw a smoke screen, then maybe get a magic gun and snipe someone in the chaos is using the both of them together, in a way that… unless you had magical smoke bombs, or just normal ones, your stuff wouldn’t do. Nevermind, I am getting off topic.

2. Shop requirement and stupidly high prices for little reward. Another big issue is the fact that, unlike casters, holders can't upgrade their stuff through rp and must use the shop. Also the prices. Mundane equipment = 15k jewel, holder equipment = 150k+ (not counting accessories) the difference? 2x durability, don't even get anything in terms of 'holder upgrades'... Hardly seems worth it when you add all the other costs to make the holder item even slightly magical. (about 100k)
(Am I correct in assuming this pricing was meant to keep holder mages from spamming holder items?)

Solution. Allow holders to do all their upgrading through rp, similar to caster mages. Also make the difference in price and actual lack of versatility worthwhile. Maybe make it so that holder mages can add the Power of their weapons to the power of their spells or something along those lines.

I see prices how I see exp. It is hard to come by. It takes a long time to gather up enough for what you want, which is more power. As far as “upgrading” their stuff, I refer to my idea of jobs that reward you with parts to help that. However, people can upgrade through RP. They actually can be…. As said here… https://fairytailrevolution.rpg-board.net/t10-holder-magic-rules-guidelines and is quoted below...

Support Lacrima encompasses both weapon extra Lacrima, the individual Lacrima spells, and extras for your lacrima spells. While a primary is active, any sub Lacrima of it's proper element can be set into the equipment and used for magic as long as the item has energy from either caster or charges. These are buyable at any shop that handles Lacrima, and are blank until you create the magic that goes within them. You can train the spell, or buy it, though training is obviously cheaper. It can be RP’d as just buying the spell, even for training threads. These take the size and shape your equipment need them to.

So they follow the rules of training magic as found here. https://fairytailrevolution.rpg-board.net/t39-learning-new-magic So literally they can be updgraded through RP and without the unpleasant cost. They can, so all of that money is only as valid as the extreme prices for getting extra spells without training them the hard way. It is a shortcut, and as thus I find the exorbent prices actually make sense. It’s buying a shortcut, but it isn’t the only way.

As for the MP lacrima, Charles responded to that, so I think he covered it. As most people who use holders wouldn’t have their own magic(that’s kind of the whole point of holder magic), but some have magic… they would use that magic separately. It isn’t a “magic fueled” item from what I understand, it is a stand-alone magic of its own powers.

As for the rest of what EllyFant commented, I don’t have anything I feel like weighing in on, or Charles spoke to it in a way I will probably comment to…. Now to that part.

Alright so I am just gonna go off of Elly here, prove my side quicker I suppose...

So, it’s a conversation, the goal is to weigh in and show your thoughts, not prove your side. It is a matter of opinions, not a matter of which of us is right, just by the way. You go on to talk about how there is no way to get them out of buying them, and maybe cutting prices. I already said I agree with the prices, knowing that you can train them for free, I also think getting them for leveling up is odd. It is a completely separate concept than caster magic. You learn spells from leveling up, and even if you don’t have to train them, logically you learned them…. Did you just stumble onto a lacrima when you got more powerful? If necessary, then alright, but I think it is unnecessary, especially since holder magic shouldn’t be as powerful as caster magic by concept.

In general, I think yeah, reworking, rewording. Hopefully what I said makes sense. I just wanted to respond to some of these things because I read them and…. Am opinionated. That is all. I hope this stuff works out, maybe I’ll make a holder someday, though I’m more likely to just make a mundane character who doesn’t use magic…. Though I could get someone a holder item I suppose. Anyway, yeah, done.

[Guest]

Sorry Ren, but I can't help but feel you're being a bit biased against holder magic:

I though I should clarify some things:

1. My original "prices are too high" argument was meant for the holder equipment itself, which is over 10x that of normal equipment without much of a significant difference. I'm actually fine with the prices of everything else.
1.2 Also, weapon upgrades might be nice as rp'able as well.

2. The MP Lacrima thing, as is now, it's only mandatory on guns. So by all intents and purposes one could argue that the MP lacrima, as it is now, is more or less useless. While on the other hand, people are still gonna be getting their usual MP bar anyway. What I'm arguing is that the whole MP Lacrima as an item should be removed, and we can just pretend that the normal MP bar people have is tied to the 'charges' on their holder item(s) rather than being 'innate magical power'. I mean, it serves the same purpose anyway; it just keeps things simplified.

3. A response to a point Sinon made. I'm actually perfectly fine with 3 Holder items, and would actually argue lowering it to two, with a third and possibly a fourth being Holder Accessories only. Specially considering that each holder weapon can get 2 primaries.

4. Also related to a point Sinon made. Upon leveling I notice that a Holder item can be upgraded once. I think, to add more variety, you should instead give a choice of 1 of the following per level: upgrade, extra sub slot, spell or augment.

All in all, I think I have a few ideas for the system, but it's late now, I need sleep, I will either edit or post again when I have more time.

[Ren Caverly]

Since you felt the need to talk to me directly, with a spoiler even… My name isn’t Ren. I’ve actually said a few times that I don’t want to be called Ren. She’s my character, I’ve been going by Stockmon for over a decade now, and it works perfectly fine, but I am not Ren. As for being biased, everyone on Earth is biased. As for being against it, I’m not. Not even a little. As was stated to me, items have their own innate properties, and thus their magic would be weaker because they don’t need magic to cut someone. A sword is a sword, plus some magic, but unless it is made out of pure magic, it doesn’t need as much magic as something else to cause harm. I would say more of my opinions on this, but it would be pointless. Disagree with my opinions all you like, but you shouldn’t accuse me of being biased against it.

As far as paragraph two, that isn’t what I meant. You learn by training. If I and practicing basketball all day, I’m going to learn new skills for it. I’m practicing in general, so I’m going to be trying out new things. If I’m practicing driving I don’t randomly end up with a new car. Acquiring skills in something you are training(no, not by some unknown force, but simply by the assumption you are Training) is more rational than just getting stuff. I used the word “Train” as in “even if you don’t train them” to say even if you don’t literally write a training thread for them. Logically you could learn them, not be handed them. It could be worked in despite not being as fluid a scenario, but…. Honestly, this whole thing goes back to you thinking holder magic should be stronger, and me thinking it should be weaker, so I’m dropping it.

Technically you can train to get them, so no, you don’t have to buy them at some point, you have to buy the item to put the magic in, but not the magic itself, last I checked. It doesn’t even matter. Honestly, being that this stuff doesn’t affect me, the only reason I said anything was because I’d already discussed it and thought I should try to speak up, as I said to Charles, it wasn’t about proving anything. Wow….. you honestly even responded to that. As far as “proving a side” not having to mean one is right, if something is proven and the two sides are on opposite ends, then yes, actually that would mean that. There is a difference between “proving” something and “showing evidence.” I have talked to him before, and that is the only reason I specifically said that to him, think what you will.

[Maxus]

Alrighty, so I know people are having a lovely time discussing things here. And staff has been thinking and coming up with ideas as well. And since we wanted your thoughts on the matter, we thought we'd throw the ideas here.

Keep in mind these are just ideas right now, and we've nothing set in stone. We just thought we'd add our thoughts to the pool and see what you guys thought.

Idea 1: Make holder equipment something you pre-plan before entering a thread. You set in the Lacrima you plan to use at the start of the thread and can't switch out. There'd be something like a reduced cool down compared to casters, but fewer available spells than a caster.

Idea 2: Roll extras into the spell itself like casters, but leave them interchangeable. Also, they compete with slots for extras the modify the weapon itself, making one choose between spells or augments.

The first part of idea 2 could be rolled into idea 1. And we aren't ignoring what you guys posted. Again, this is just to add to the topic and see what you guys think. Thanks very much for contributing what you have so far.

[Guest]

I'm not sure I quite follow idea 2. Do you mean like have 2 sets of extras, the ones on augment lacrima on the weapon itself and the ones on the spells?

ex. say I have a lv 1 weapon with 2 augments + a lvl 1 spell with 2 extras
weapon has multihit + bounce
spell has impact + burn

so we have a choice between using the spell specific extras or changing them for the weapon ones? or would you be removing the augment lacrima? o-o

[Kotone]

Let me try and explain what Maxus was saying in case that helps

Method 1 was an idea I had that will change how things work but I think it could make holder items unique and fun if we do it right -

Method 1:

Holder items can no longer be changed on the fly, instead they are given a limited allotment of spells you can use, though they will have a reduced cooldown compared to normal spells, making them more limited in variety but a lot less limited in use.

Not entirely thought-out Example:

Kotone has a holder katana that has 4 slots for spells, and she places 4 different lightning-themed spells in them. She can only use those four spells, which is fewer compared to a caster. However, those spells can be cast more often, perhaps every post until the caster runs out of MP. This means they are more limited, but can sustain a better assault by default.

If Kotone wants more spells, she gets a ring, which has, say, 1 slot for a new spell. She places a water-themed spell in that ring, and that increases her holder spells she equips to five.

She can pick new spells she has approved for the weapon at the beginning of each thread, or simply go with a default setup if she isn't changing anything.


Method 2 is closer to what we have now. Essentially we take out all of the confusing and overly complicated part of the system, and you will simply create spells like you would for a caster. However, you can only use the spells you have equipped, and they can be switched out on the fly for more variety.

Essentially, the only real change is rolling the spells into one spell per lacrima instead of a bunch of pieces which are potentially rather hard for both you and your opponents to understand when they look at what you're trying to do. The downsides are, you have to keep track of each individual lacrima's cooldowns even when you switch them, and the lacrima will have the same 3 post cooldown as a normal spell, probably never decreasing.

[Kasimir Sewik]

I like method 2, it just seems easier to keep track of. Considering this isn't actual stats and the stats reflect our RP rather than math, I'd say it just makes more sense for current combat. If this is what our current system is like... could've fooled me. Like Sinon said, right now it's a little hard to follow the wording of the holder descriptions. The system might be totally fine right now and but I wouldn't know - it's hard to make sense of some of it, so I think as long as it's reworded and we start getting more holder mages... would be easier to figure out what's ideal.

[PatriotArrow]

Alright, FINAL-ISH verdict after we (your handsome and dedicated and handsome staffers) spent this morning discussing what to do with the Holder Items. We're giving you today to voice misgivings or praise (so help you if it's not praise! jk) about the idea, but after that we're finalizing everything. So here we go!

1.) First off, the items themselves. We're revamping how expensive things are, and adding default stats for various kinds of weapons. Custom jobs (if you want to make your own items) will cost a little more, but nothing too serious.

1.A) Armor is losing two of the stats, leaving it with power (damage reduction) and durability (how much damage it can take before its useless for the rest of the thread). Weapons will remain largely the same. Accessories have no use for statistics, and are simply given a slot with which to expand your arsenal of spells.

1.3) MP lacrima is no longer a thing. Instead, what you draw your energy from is a flavor thing. Keeping to 1 MP bar is just more fair and easier to keep track of.

2.) Holder item spells are going to be created like normal spells. While we liked the versatility of the old version, there is actually such a thing as too much freedom, and that point is reached when it gets confusing or awkward to use.

2.1) Holder item spells are no longer locked in to a single element! Mix and match to your heart's content. Each lacrima is individual, after all, and not tied to the caster themselves like caster magic is. How much fun is it to get to hit someone with a rock then set them on fire?!

2.2) Holder item loadouts can be changed, but only in "clips." This means you set up a configuration and the spells you put together stay together when you swap them out mid fight, swapping them out for a completely new set of abilities. This means you have choices to make if you want to gain new powers to use.

2.3) Cooldown! We're reducing that for holder items. 1 post each is what we're aiming for. You can't spam the exact ability every post, but that really isn't long to wait either.

3.) Loadout limits
A. one 1h weapon and 1 shield, two 1h weapons, one 2h weapon
B. Armor (armor and shields won't stack, but can be used for defense one at a time)
C. 2 Accessories
C.1 - A holder using only accessories may have up to 8 accessories instead. Those starting with accessories are given 4 accessories instead of one regular weapon or armor. Keep in mind that accessories will have only one lacrima slot, and thus the spells can actually be changed individually!

[Kasimir Sewik]

Looks good to me, I can see you guys ironed everything out. I like the versatility that Holder items give and I understood everything posted above, so probably a good sign. I'm looking forward to seeing the final written version, and more Holder Mages =)

[Guest]

So basically it's now the same as requip spells but limited by these 'clip' things... 2 questions:

1. What will be the size of these clips?
2. How will the equipment mods from the shop (if they still exist) work in this new system?

also I'm a little iffy about this: "...and adding default stats for various kinds of weapons. Custom jobs (if you want to make your own items) will cost a little more..."
but I'd actually have to see what you mean before I comment on it. Personally, I think it's fine to just leave the stats to personal preference.

Other than that, it all looks fine. ;D

[PatriotArrow]

1. The size i'm currently working on in my head but it will likely be something along the lines of
accessories - 1
1h weapons - 4
2h weapons - 6
shields - 3
armor 2 (more durability than shields though) (feel free to give opinions I am not quite sure what the right number is at the time of replying)

2. We'll likely be making the equipment mods a seperate thing, which we're still figuring out a bit. We're concentrating on the holder items themselves atm.

3. I'm basically talking about adding things like daggers, 1 handed slashing weapons, bows, etc. that you can just buy preapproved (and yes they're definitely going to be less expensive as holder items), but for a small fee more you can make your own custom jobs. The starter holder items are still going to be custom items unless you just want to use the standard ones.

[Guest]

hmm... now that I think about it, this will probably make holders op.
since now they'll have weapons, free range of spell choices and reduced spell cooldown.

I'd suggest making it so that at least each weapon has to follow a certain theme with their spells.

[Nines]

Do the "Theme" thing except instead of the weapon, with the clip.
Each lacrima in the "Clip" has to follow a theme.
Such as a Sword's "Clip" being shock wave's, however it can use fire, wind, water, or ice waves.
Something like that.

That way people can still learn how to fight against a specific weapon mid combat, however it still gives the holder versatility.

[Han Dailing]

I, too, would like to know about equipment mods since I'm in the process of making Han's items and his suits all have passive effects as stated in his "magic's" description. As it is right now, it is impossible to give armor a passive effect such as a boost to speed or adding an element to the armor so it gives a protection bonus to the elements its strong against and a protection penalty to the ones it's weak against.

All armor is at the moment is a layer of protection with some spells tied to it and seeing as re-equippers in the show had armors that imparted some sort of passive effect (like Erza's armor which boosted her physical strength) then it shouldn't be a stretch to allow that here as well. Obviously, they wouldn't be super substantial boosts since just wearing the armor would be all that's required, but something at least noticeable to make it more than just a later of metal with some abilities would be nice.

Maybe have an "enchantment" system where the 5 stars that armor has lost is instead given as an allowance for installing enhancements. Like, you want to have armor give a boost to speed and make your footfalls more silent for stealth purposes. You would have a list of enhancements or enchantments that all have a star value. You have five to work with so you find a 10% speed boost (or the equivalent of that under this system) for ** and a Lightfooted perk for ***. You install both on the armor. Obviously, more powerful enhancements would be available for higher rank armor, but would still cost the same to keep the armor theme, but still allow it to grow in potency.

Shields would be limited in that they can only impart defensive perks like adding an element and such since they're merely a barrier you strap to your arm while armor would be able to enhance physical stats, add defensive auras and elements, and impart utility effects since they are worn on the body.

Just a suggestion.

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